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New Post 3/3/2008 6:55 PM
User is offline Kayn Munro
6 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

 Pratyeka Muromachi wrote

Just wondering what role, if any, are foundation residents to have and act upon. From the Foundation residents page, I read:

"

  • A Voice via your Foundation Resident Votes, be heard and help us with in-world decision making.
  • Recognition as a Pioneer, being a Foundation Resident. "

"

If we have votes and in-world decision making, we need regular meetings and some sort of agenda. We need a vision of what kind of world we want to develop. Let me throw in a first item on this agenda:

A number of voices have expressed their desire to have many waterways in-world. This is nice. But those waterways need to be kept open to be useful. So we should agree that no matter how strong the temptation is, we should never put up structures on waterways that would block, restrict or impede in any way the passage of watercrafts of any kind. We can build bridges, piers, decks and pontoons at the edges of waterways, but never cover the waterways with prims in order to put up buildings, stores, malls, etc... so that the waterways becomes just a piece of land to build on. Waterways should retain their original nature and intent: to provide an area suitable for water activities of all kind. Any building that would change this original nature and intent should be avoided.

What say you, fellow foundation residents?

 

 

This is the original topic, and my response is similar to that of my previous post. Getting other foundation residents to agree on open waterways is a great idea. But the key word here is "agree". Isn't that already in place? We can choose to agree or not to agree. Are you asking for founders to agree to this voluntarily? Or are you asking for a specific rule to be implemented to enforce open waterways? Sorry, I'm not clear on what this proposal is.

 
New Post 3/4/2008 4:46 AM
User is offline Nana
29 posts
www.virtualknowledgegroup.com
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 
Modified By Nana  on 3/4/2008 4:52:35 AM)

Thanks for pulling us back up to a reasonable level of discourse!   :-)  This is the main thread of this discussion.   I see water as essentially the same as land.   It is quite apparent that people do not want to be told what to do with their land.   Similarly I do not want to be told by anyone other than Sakai what I can or cannot with my water.   Open waterways is great.... especially for those who have no water on their land.   LOL.   If I am to keep over half of my land open that will defeat one of my hopes to build a marsh on the middle portion of my land with representations of some of the key species of rl swampy regions.  I know it has been suggested that waterways should be kept open for those who want to sail.   I am extremely sympathetic to that point of view.   I'd like canoes to be able to navigate my waterways should I succeed with my bog-i-fication of my land.  Steamships are another matter.    What % of my land will other residents expect me to keep open?  Will residents that use my waterways also have to keep a similar portion of their region open to other forms of transportation?    Why or why not? 

Someone said that I knew when I bought my land that I had to keep all my water open.   I did not know that, and cannot find anywhere that says I must.   I did however know that I could only terraform or change in my land elevation by 10 meters.   I do want to raise a bit of my land so that it is just under the water line.     I would like to discuss this topic in a civil manner as it's resolution significantly impacts when I can begin a permanent build.  At this point I cannot ethically do that as I want to observe the spirit as well as the letter of the "law."  

Before I ever posted anything I read the original bit quoted by Kayn.  Because this idea was already tossed out I have chosen to as yet not build permanently above any of my water so that until this sensitive matter is resolved I won't upset anyone nor will have to tear down anything -- should I have misinterprested the rules.    I'm trying to be neighborly and cautious.

Over half of my land is under water.   If I'm expected to keep all of my water as originally set down on the grid open, I will be a bit taken aback.  I am willing to donate a portion of my land (up to a reasonable and as yet undefined) percentage to public works.   It sounds like most people who have voiced an opinion expect me to voluntarily do so.    The thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is why would I have to donate a portion of my land if others are not expected also to do so.    Please please please note I have said nothing about forcing anyone to do anything.   I'm speaking of expectations which will shape the future interactions of Foundation Residents, and as far as I understand it that is one of the things Sakai would like to see us do-- to set a cooperative tone for all Openlife Grid residents.  

Am I being unreasonable asking for other Founders to help me navigate this sticky topic?  I would truly appreciate the help.  

 
New Post 3/4/2008 6:45 AM
Online now... Osiris
52 posts
Openlife Apprentice




Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

No Nana - I dont think you are being unreasonable at all.

People cannot make up or change the rules after the fact, especially without just compensation.  We all hate it when the government imminent domains land for a building project.  This is the same.  I would say that you should have the chance at least to trade for a different region.

 
New Post 3/4/2008 10:46 AM
User is offline Kayn Munro
6 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

 Osiris wrote

No Nana - I dont think you are being unreasonable at all.

People cannot make up or change the rules after the fact, especially without just compensation.  We all hate it when the government imminent domains land for a building project.  This is the same.  I would say that you should have the chance at least to trade for a different region.

I agree Osiris, while I do not have water on my land. What if I choose to have water and then changed my mind? Or sold my land with water on it? Would the new waterway be subject to this proposal?  Who will keep track of what was an original waterway and what was not? The thing is... if it's waterways, airspace or themes.... where do you draw the line? And then if this is a rule that will be implemented would Sakai be willing to move the region along with the build? Will the new region be the same? Who will be appointed to enforce this? For those who bought a sim that is over 50% water does this mean they could lose half their sim and still must pay for it? What about those who bought land in a specific area and now must be forced to move their sim? This proposal opens a whole bunch of other topics. If this is not a proposed rule to be made, we already have the option to keep waterways open or not. The same goes for airspace and themes.

 
New Post 3/4/2008 1:33 PM
Online now... pinky
34 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

Nana wrote Quote:.."..I am willing to donate a portion of my land (up to a reasonable and as yet undefined) percentage to public works.   It sounds like most people who have voiced an opinion expect me to voluntarily do so.  ..."

If there is no consensues, then atleast  there should be a provision that allow parcel owner to lease the land and water right back to the governing body....this situation are very common in RL where a city sells lands to private entities and then lease back a portion of land or water for the right to use a small portion of the property. At the end of the lease, the property is revert back to the rightful owner.

 
New Post 3/4/2008 3:57 PM
User is offline Karen Palen
43 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

 Nana wrote Thanks for pulling us back up to a reasonable level of discourse!   :-) 

I will try not to lead everyone astray LOL

 Nana wrote I see water as essentially the same as land.   It is quite apparent that people do not want to be told what to do with their land.   Similarly I do not want to be told by anyone other than Sakai what I can or cannot with my water.   Open waterways is great.... especially for those who have no water on their land. 

Since we have the capability to edit the terrain easily and turn land into water and water into land, they are essentially the same  thing!

Personally I really enjoyed the SL "boats", "ballon trips" and the "railroads", but as far as I know all of them are shut down at present!

However I don't think that "land" owners rights are the problem.

The systems that I know of worked quite well by negotiating a donation of a strip of land (or "overfly rights") from the sim owners. For many commercial land owners, this provided a very chaep way to ensure at least some traffic passed their location.

I certainly discovered some really neat places while "travelling" on the various systems in SL!

Sadly the reason that they are not operating seems to be technical limitations of SL rather than anyone's desire to do away with them. Unfortunately those same limitaions apply with OpenSim as well.

(1) Crossing sim boundaries is a complex process in which everything has to go correctly or there is a crash (literally in this case :-) ) At a minimum it then needs the transport owner to reset the whole system and restart things. Fine if that happens once every six months, but 10 times a day and it is unworkable.

This problem gets even worse if you try to go from one grid to another (Second Life to OpenLife for example), alhtough it would really be a nifty way to do a tour ...

(2) Even when things are working fine, the normal sim lag means that the scenery is essentially "grey goo"  at any reasonable travel speed. Apart from reducing lag (HAH!) there seems to be no way to fix this.

(3) Teleport is much easier if you simply want to "get there" and don't want to  admire the scenery.

In RL this is the difference between Road/Rail travel and Commercial Flying.

Perhaps the goal should be to get something working in a single sim then try to expand it by talking to the neighbors (gasp!).

 
New Post 3/6/2008 2:47 AM
Online now... pinky
34 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

[QUOTE]Karen Palen wrote

(1) Crossing sim boundaries is a complex process in which everything has to go correctly or there is a crash (literally in this case :-) ) At a minimum it then needs the transport owner to reset the whole system and restart things. Fine if that happens once every six months, but 10 times a day and it is unworkable.

This problem gets even worse if you try to go from one grid to another (Second Life to OpenLife for example), alhtough it would really be a nifty way to do a tour ...

(2) Even when things are working fine, the normal sim lag means that the scenery is essentially "grey goo"  at any reasonable travel speed. Apart from reducing lag (HAH!) there seems to be no way to fix this.

(3) Teleport is much easier if you simply want to "get there" and don't want to  admire the scenery.

[QUOTE]

I am very suprised on this (sim crossing) seemingly un-fixable problem. Wouldnt. it t be possible technically to design either (1)join the multiple sims togather or (2) config the sim larger than 65K m2, like 4*65K with subdivide option. ??  Then the handsakes problems would just disappear until someone can come up with a real fix.

Currently the 65k limit is just silly for any physic enabled vehicles. It just take a blink of the eyes to travel from one side of the sim to the opposite side.

 

 
New Post 3/6/2008 7:43 AM
User is offline Karen Palen
43 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 
Modified By Karen Palen  on 3/6/2008 7:45:26 AM)

 pinky wrote

I am very suprised on this (sim crossing) seemingly un-fixable problem. Wouldnt. it t be possible technically to design either (1)join the multiple sims togather or (2) config the sim larger than 65K m2, like 4*65K with subdivide option. ??  Then the handsakes problems would just disappear until someone can come up with a real fix.

I did not mean to imply that it is unfixable, just complex!

A lot of things must get transferred from one sim to the next and done quickly despite the total lag of both sims. Even walking from one sim to another can be quite a drama as things don't all get set up right away. With a vehicle it will simply come apart or leave the track and probablt not "find" itself again.

Joining sims together or enlarging sim only hides the problem since there is really no way to have the entire grid in one sim - essentially this is a limitation of available hardware!

The real limit is programmer time - that is actually a mirror of RL, we already have far more powerful computers than we have programmers to make them "play nice". As I recall, the entire world's population was supposed to become programmers around the year 2000 - since that didn't happen the world is now falling far behind the need for programmers!

 
New Post 3/6/2008 8:39 AM
Online now... pinky
34 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

 Karen Palen wrote

 

Joining sims together or enlarging sim only hides the problem since there is really no way to have the entire grid in one sim - essentially this is a limitation of available hardware!

The real limit is programmer time - that is actually a mirror of RL, we already have far more powerful computers than we have programmers to make them "play nice". As I recall, the entire world's population was supposed to become programmers around the year 2000 - since that didn't happen the world is now falling far behind the need for programmers!

I agree, hardwares are a major factors and programmers are not paid enough to do the job..they are working for pennies in India and the third world..until we value this segment of the resouces, we are not going to see people going after the programing field. I know first hand in high school,programming are treated as an elective and not as a major subject. SL did a great job on spreading the scripting language, even though it is just the tip of the iceberg,but it did illustrate on the use and application of what could be done.

 
New Post 3/6/2008 5:59 PM
User is offline Karen Palen
43 posts
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 
Modified By Karen Palen  on 3/6/2008 6:05:02 PM)

 pinky wrote

 

I agree, hardwares are a major factors and programmers are not paid enough to do the job..they are working for pennies in India and the third world..until we value this segment of the resouces, we are not going to see people going after the programing field. I know first hand in high school,programming are treated as an elective and not as a major subject. SL did a great job on spreading the scripting language, even though it is just the tip of the iceberg,but it did illustrate on the use and application of what could be done.

I apologize if this leads us away from the topic, but I think it is relevent.

Actually the "One laptop Per Child" project implies that second and third graders will be programming simple scripts in say 5-6 years!

In Thailand for example every child will be given a laptop upon entering First Grade and will download their school books from the central school net. After three of four years of that experience just try to keep those kids from programmng when they find they can programm tricks to play on their freinds!

We are going to see a new aristocracy - those who program and those who can't. It is our choice if some of those people will live in the US/EU or only Asians will control the world!

One of the really sobering things about travel in Asia is that you are suddenly iliterate and realize just how much you depend on reading all kinds of things every day. Programming is becoming that basic a skill!

 
New Post 3/7/2008 11:32 PM
Online now... Galen
65 posts
Openlife Apprentice


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

OK, then as a new foundation resident, i'd like to say a big "HELLO" to everybody .... actually, i'm proud to join this great project.

 

So according to this topic, i would make a suggestion. In RL, i have some experience with methods, how to make decisions in a big group of people, that i'd like to bring in. I would suggest to do it in the indian tradition of a "talking circle".

I'll explain shortly how it works, then you can think about it.

A group of people who want to make a decision come together in a circle. The group can be big or small, that doesn't matter, maybe only in how long the talking will go....

There is one  item, called talking-stick...this item goes round the circle from one person to the next...and only the one, who has the talking stick, is allowed to talk, and tell his oppinion about the topic to the others. The others have to listen and keep attention to what the talker says. After the talker has finished, the stick is passed to the next in the circle...and so it goes round and round. If someone has nothing to say, he just passes the stick.

A decision is done by a "negative consensus". The consensus is there, when nobody in the circle is against the decision. If only one is against the decision, the talking circle will go on, until the consensus is found, or, if there is no consensus, the decision is not made, and everything keeps how it is (was).

I joined many talking circles while being with very large groups of people (5000 and more), where decisions just about every aspect of a community had to be found, and i can tell you wholeheartedly, that this method works really well. But  it can only work, if people are willing to find a consensus, and dont stay on their oppinion, just for ego reasons. Everybody has to be open for the talking of the others and has to be open to the arguments of others.

In this way, very slowly, a very democratic decision is formed. It is feeded by all aspects of different oppinions, but usually, at the end, a totally new construct formed by all the different aspects is found....

 

So i would suggest, to make a "foundation circle", and every fouder can ask for a circle, if he thinks, he has something important, and a decision has to be made. We can meet in OL, maybe every time at a different place and at a different time. Every founder, who thinks, that this topic is important, and who thinks, he has something to say about this, can join the circle and has a voice. It could also be done in a chat, but i think, coming together in OL will help a lot, because you see the presence of the others, you see the circle and the talking stick.

We could all try it out, and make a foundation circle just as a test. We come together, and talk in the circle of whatever we feel in our hearts. This way, we all will know us much better. Maybe we can make some small decision, for example of how many founders have to be in the circle to make a consensus that is valid for all.

What do you think about it? Maybe you can read some internet ressources about the talking cirlce...its really worth it... From my experience, its the best and most effective way to make democratic, well worked out decisions without any leaders. And everybody has a voice that is heard by the others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_circle

Greetings, love and light

Galen

 
New Post 3/8/2008 2:07 PM
User is offline Nana
29 posts
www.virtualknowledgegroup.com
Openlife Newbie


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

Hi Galen,   Wowza!   Listening?   What an innovative concept.    I personally like it.   I'd like to hear what Sakai thinks about it.   How many iterations does it usually take to achieve concensus?

 
New Post 3/8/2008 11:19 PM
Online now... Galen
65 posts
Openlife Apprentice


Re: Foundation residents role - let's define what we are here for. 

Hi Nana,

it totally depends on the topic and the inspiration of the people joining the talking circle. Some decisions take only 2 or 3 iterations, i've personally seen talking circles going on for a whole week :) Usually, if it takes very long, a decision is made to continue the circle the next day.

This might sound strange, but if the topic is very important, it is very helpful, when the decision takes long. Having enough time helps a lot to rethink the topic again and again, and usually one changes his first oppinion slowly... You hear the arguments of the others, rethink, and a little variation is formed in your mind... and this goes on and on...The consensus that is usually found is a creation of many spirits over a decend period of time...

 

Love and light

Galen

 

 

 

 
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